【ニトロプラス著作権ガイドラインついて】でじだろう氏「同人活動を規制しようという考えは全くありません」
参考:ニトロプラスが同人ガイドラインを改定 「200部以下限定」「書店委託禁止」など
帰国しましたが、著作権ガイドラインについて大きな問題となっていました。 文章の精査が甘く、意図とは異なる表現になっていたようです。深くお詫びします。 僕は同人出身ですので同人活動を応援したいし、同人活動を規制しようという考えは全くありません。続く>
— でじたろう@ニトロプラス (@digitarou) 2014, 7月 8
続き>ただファン活動とは思えない営利目的の同人グッズ等が増え続けている現状を何らかの形で線引したいのです。非営利性の出版物等の同人活動はこれまで通りのスタンスです。ガイドラインの文章を明日中に誤解を産まないようなテキストに変更します。今しばらくお待ちください
— でじたろう@ニトロプラス (@digitarou) 2014, 7月 8
同人活動を規制してしまったら、日本のコンテンツの未来に関わる大事件です。僕もニトロプラスを立ち上げていなかったかもしれません。さらに同人活動が発展し、優れたクリエイターが輩出される環境が育っていくことを願って止みません
— でじたろう@ニトロプラス (@digitarou) 2014, 7月 8
そう考えて頂けると嬉しいです。難しい問題ではありますが、コンテンツ業界の未来のために議論を続けられたらと思います RT @E_K_D: @digitarou @FR3AK50FC0CK “著作物を借りている”自覚と敬意は必要だと感じます
— でじたろう@ニトロプラス (@digitarou) 2014, 7月 8
/ ̄ ̄\ だってさ!!よかったなぁ発狂とかしてた人・・・
/ _ノ \ でも営利と非営利の境界なんて曖昧だと思うけど
| ( ー)(ー)
. | (__人__)
| ` ⌒´ノ
. | nl^l^l
. ヽ | ノ
ヽ ヽ く
/ ヽ \
てか大騒ぎになってるの知らなかったのか・・・
/ ̄ ̄\
/ \ ____
|:::::::U | / \ ガイドラインが出して1ヶ月もたってから大騒ぎになってるからね
. |::::::::::: | / ⌒ ⌒ \ アニメエキスポもあったし、多分一番でじたろう氏が驚いてるだろ
|:::::::::::::: | / (●) (●) \
. |:::::::::::::: } | (__人__) |
. ヽ:::::::::::::: } \_ mj |⌒´ _/
ヽ:::::::::: ノ / 〈__ノ \
/:::::::::::: く | y´ ノ 、 |
-―――――|:::::::::::::::: \-―┴―──―――┴┴――
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さ
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が
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ひとけた
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発狂してた人たちって上から目線のが多かったな
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でも10万超えたりDL発売したら駄目なんでしょ?
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内容も知らないのにエロ描いて儲けるだけの同人屋も居るしな。
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抱き枕で暴利を貪ってる奴もいるからな
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9だ
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実際あれは同人作家ひいては業界を自粛、萎縮させかねない文言を含んでたからなぁ。コストの回収が難しくなるのはいかん
あの文言のまま施行されてたらきっと他の企業も後追いしてたよ
まあ何にせよ同人屋は終わりやな
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わけがわかないよ
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さぁ
どうやって粗探しから揚げ足を取ろうかな
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要するに
「趣味OK・商売NO」
これだろ?
商売人の同人屋が「同人活動を規制」って騒いでいると。
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タイトルがでじ「だ」ろうになってるぞ
さすがに人の名前を間違えるのはアカン
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pixivのr18がそに子だらけで何事かと思ったぞ
正直そに子をこれから描く奴は減るだろ、200部って弱小しかのこらんよ
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ヒヨッてんじゃねーよ。だらしねえ
ニトロにはがっかりだわ
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規制するのは同人じゃなくて商売にしてしまってる同人ゴロだから
コミケ参加なんて費用も馬鹿ならないのに毎回サークル参加してるやつらが騒ぐのはお察し
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最近はとにかく金を儲けたい奴の方が圧倒的に多いんだよなぁ
プロにあこがれてる奴はネットでタダで公開して知名度上げる時代だよ
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10 後追いは来ると思う
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売らなきゃいいんだろ
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要するに版権グッズ売る会社差し置いて
バッタモンの抱き枕とかで儲けるなって話じゃないの
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コスプレAVとかAV女優自体ってか、たぶん撮る方もコスプレ元のゲームだったりアニメだったり知らないよな。シュタゲのはやたら凝ってたから作ってる方は理解してたんだろうけど。
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今回の規制はファン離れを起こしかねないレベルだったけどさ。
でも、やっぱある程度規制は必要だと思うわ。
ずっと同人でやってきた人達は売れてきても、売れなかった時代のマイナスを考えたらそれほど儲けてないだろうけどさ。
法人が「同人の皮をかぶってつくれば著作権料を払わずに大儲けできるわ~」ってのはマズい。
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地方参加者は印刷費の他に交通費が酷いコストになるからな
10万なんてまるで残らん。そもそも10万売り切れるかって問題はあるがそれとこれとは別の話よ
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グッズは数量限定会場限定でいい気がする
同人誌は見逃してくれ
買えないとオークションで高値で並ぶだけで嬉しくない
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艦○れとかまさにそんな感じだもんなぁ。俺の友人の知り合いが即売会で「○これプレイしたことないけど儲かればええねん」とか言っててなんだかなぁって思った
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東方がグッズサークル増やしたイメージ。
同人グッズなんて営利でしかないのに
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ここの会社の同人誌作るのを止めればいい
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同人禁止じゃなくて露骨な商売道具として人のモノ使うなって話でなぜ叩かれるのか
同人ゴロは死滅しろ
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↓ここで伝説の同人誌作家が冷静に一言
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営利と非営利の違いって売れてるか売れてないかなんだろ
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いきなり規制したり、ウソでしたって言ったり何なんコレは、
こちらの段取りは無視かよ、もうニトロ作品は描けないな
これって、喪服の死神レベルの悪行だろ?
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もともと趣味だけでやってた人からすればこのガイドラインは
ある程度の活動を許してくれるしどこまでやっていいかも分かるからありがたい
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版権絵をそのまま貼ってトートバッグだ缶バッジだ抱き枕だと
それは同人活動じゃないよ、
もっとお金を得たいなら自分でキャラクターを生み出しなさい、
でじたろうの言ってることは至極真っ当だと思うのですよ。
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さすがにやばいと焦りだしなw
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ただファン活動とは思えない営利目的の同人グッズ等が増え続けている現状を何らかの形で線引したいのです。
そらしてーわな
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権利者は神なんだよ
同人ゴロは黙ってしたがってればいい
えらそうにファンが離れるだの業界の発展だの語る資格はない
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まあニトロ作品の同人は描かなきゃいいだけの話
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ある程度規制してくれたほうが良いと思うけどねぇ。
本当だったら同人なんて、ほとんどが著作権違反してるんだしさ
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だいたいさぁ、ニトロの作品も買うのも同人を買うのも
基本同じ層よ。
馬鹿じゃないの?ディズニーと勘違いしてるの?www
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10万という金額の設定はどっから来たの
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やってることは正しいと思うが
大手は確実に避けるようになるわけで
果たしてメリットがあるかどうか
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というかニトロ作品の同人なんてほとんど見ないんだけど
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例え神でなくてもお前等は他人のウンコで飯食ってるんだから
遜らなくてはならない。
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どうでもいいわ
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つまらん会社になったのお
本当に
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40
買う側じゃなくて作る側に釘さしてんだろ
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こーゆーのはニトロ一社で動いたってダメだって
みんなで手を組んで少しずつ範囲を狭めていかないと
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出たwww必殺「意図とは異なる表現になっていたようです」
お前は政治家か
規制するつもりじゃなかったんなら最初から強い言葉を使うなよ
弱く見えるぞ
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>>42
そんな事でメリットとか言ってる奴はただのアホ
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文句言ってる奴はつまらない奴ばかりだからな。
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わざわざこんなフォローなんて入れなくてもいいのにね
同人屋に現実を突きつけたって意味ではいい仕事したと思うけど
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あ~前回の記事で同人を叩いてた連中
耳真っ赤だろうなぁw
ヒステリー入ってたもんなあれ。
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ニトロプラスは虎の尾を踏んだね
これが前例になってどんどん規制されると
分かってる人たちは分かってる
企業は取っ掛かりがあればどんどん規制してくるぞ
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いくら奇麗事言っても最後には金が欲しいだったね
ネットで無料公開(ただ働き)してプロになった人もいる時代になってるのに
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※25
だよなー
グッズはむしろ規制したほうがいいけど薄い本についてはもう少し緩めにしてほしい
転売もそうなんだか無許可でDL販売とかされると
品が無ければ買う輩は多いと思うんだよ
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まぁそれこそfate/zeroなんてもんを都合よく利用してる会社にしては勇み足すぎるし
なんのつもりなのかよくわからんは
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>3.販売数量の総累計数が200個以内であること
>4.売上予定額が小規模(10万円未満)であること
この時点で規制する気満々じゃねえか
なにが意図とは違う表現だよ?
表現どうこうじゃなくてハッキリ書いてるだろ?
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同人死活問題ニキ冷えてるか~
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49
どっかの漫画のキャラが言ってそうな安っすい台詞ですね(笑)
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>>50
それなりに有るよw
メロブの一般向け棚でコーナーを作られるぐらいだとなww
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200部以上、儲け10万円以上はアウトでいいだろw
それが嫌ならオリジナルで勝負しろやw
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営利目的で食いつないでいける土台があるからこそ
厚い層が生まれると思うけどね
非営利しか認めないじゃ下積みで頑張ってる多くの同人作家が筆を折る事になるだろう
だって生計立てられないもの
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草
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?
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46
馬鹿な会社と馬鹿ができる会社は違うからな?
自分たちの考えを明確にしただけでつまらないとかどんだけ幼稚な考え方してるの
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乞食が文句言うな。
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営利目的ってつまり?
ファン活動するにもそのファン活動で稼ぎがないと同人なんて作れないけど?
同人出身とか擦り寄る姿勢見せて誤魔化してるのが見え見え
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まぁ、反響がでかすぎて驚き慌ててフォローに入ったって感じ
これが原因でコンテンツとしての価値が消える
ファンが別のに移動したら本末転倒だからな
正直こんなフォローしたら形骸化一直線って気もするがね
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48
ニトロに所属してるなまにくだって二次創作同人で荒稼ぎしまくってるわけで
この可逆性を解放してる方が業界にとって都合がいい側面がある以上狭める必要性と意義がわからない
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巨大な商売にするのを規制してるだけじゃんってこないだは思ったが
なるほど、確かに赤字になるような規制だとキツイな、考えはあってると思うが
同人活動して交通宿泊費も含んで、トントンか打ち上げ費用ぐらいの利益が出る
規制にして欲しいな
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利益を同人に一部取られて気分が悪いんだろうけど
実際にはオタ系会社って同人が無ければ利益自体がしぼんでしまうんだよな
まあニトロプラスって同人に依存してるコンテンツは
そんなに無さそうだから同人排除しても大差は無いかもしれんけど
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39
コミケ創成期から、ア二パロってジャンルはあるのに
ニワカのガキが「本当だったら」って
コミケ全否定できる立場なのか?オマエは
ところで、エラソウに言うんだからイラスト位は描けるんだろうな
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多分実際に行使する気は無くて
何か問題が起きた場合の予防線はってただけに思うけど
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ニトロプラス関連は同人界隈から速やかにパージされるな
引く時はあっという間でしょ
どちらがどちらに依存してたか明らかになる
ぶっちゃけニトロプラスは調子に乗りすぎた
アニプレ辺りに持て囃された結果や
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まあ、どのみち規制は規制ってわけで
ガイドライン以降は趣味で度の過ぎない程度で描いて、どうぞ。って訳だ。
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もっと厳しくしたほうがいい
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大騒ぎなのは腐系なんじゃねーの?
今期からはじまった腐向けアニメの中にもニトロのが入ってたしね
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禁止した所で大手同人が得ていた利益がニトロプラスに入る訳でもなく
むしろ市場規模が小さくなるだけで何の特にもならないという
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発狂してたのは乞食のくせに上から目線のクズばかりだったからねww
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>>77
ディズニーなら可能だろうよw
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ここまで同人の規模が大きくなった原因は
一発当てるとデカイ(大儲け)だからね・・・
しかしここまで騒ぐか?
ちゃんと営利でも申請すればいいだけじゃん
好きなことやりたいなら責任や手間が少し増えたくらい我慢しろよ
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好きで作るのが同人だろ
金目当てなら真面目に働け
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問題はグッズなんだろうな
1枚絵を描いただけで何十万も儲かるのは異常だよ
せめて同人誌とかで漫画なら描く時間もかかるし
それなりに認めるって流れなんだよな
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無許可でプライズモドキ出したりしてる連中を言ってるんじゃないかと
あれ酷過ぎる
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煽りとかじゃなくてニトロとかどうでもよくね?
本気で稼ぎたいならそもそも選ばないだろ
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ニトロプラスのを描きたいと思ったことなんて無いからどうでもいい
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まぁ、営利目的はそりゃビジネスな訳でちゃんと版権元に許可とる必要性はあるわな。ただその線引きが難しい
確かに200部超えにDL販売もやるぜ!となるとそれは非営利とはいえないし
同人の枠を超えたビジネスの領域ともいえるわな
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グッズは駆逐してもいい
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不正な方法で金銭を得てるのに、何で同人は許されるとか思ってるのかFU・SI・GI!
しかも、此処までなら問題にはしないよ!ってお目こぼしまでしてくれてるのに……
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まぁ、ニトロが、オタ限定でかなりイメージを落としたのは事実だよw
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好きで作るのが同人だったはずだけど今は利益しか見てない
売れた作品があればイナゴのように押し寄せてくる
今回のガイドラインだって別に同人禁止なわけでもないし甘いぐらいだと思う
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そろそろ米国のフェアユースを導入すべきだろう
逮捕しようと思えば同人所か落書きですら逮捕されるとかちょっとおかしいわ
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グッズはあかん
物によっては公式と区別がつかん
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オタ系の会社がゼニ儲けな姿勢出すとなんか凄く醜く見える
AKBとかもそうだが、一緒に作り上げる系のコンテンツで
利益総取りしようって姿勢は正直好きじゃない
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200部作って一年は余るサークルには何の問題もないのである
サンライズや集英社とかもやってくんないかなぁ
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叩かれたから手のひら返したw
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アマチュアの同人活動は今まで通りで大丈夫
駄目なのは儲けの多い一部の同人ゴロだけ(それでも手続きすれば大丈夫)
なんで叩く奴が居るのかワカラン
「ニトロやり過ぎ」とか「ニトロはもう終わり」とか「イメージ落とした」
とか言ってる奴には大笑い
そりゃあ大儲け狙ってる同人ゴロには死活問題だわな
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見るからに規制しようという思いしかない
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ラインを定めてくれたおかげで、逆に同人活動をやりやすくしてくれてるよな
制限してるのは、規模の大きな経済活動
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著作権法にパロディ規定いるだろうな
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別に同人ゴロはどうなってもいいから
ガイドラインはこのままで変えなくていいよ
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要は「礼儀も知らないゴロは氏ね」ってことだろ、別にいいじゃん
二百部以上さばけるサークルなら、他人の褌で相撲とらなくてもそこそこの結果は出せるんじゃないの?
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ピコ手のわい、高みの見物
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結局発狂してるのは同人ゴロ
普通のサークルだと200とかそんなさばけんだろ
そもそもニトロにそんな人気のコンテンツはソニ子ぐらいなんだけど
ソニ子なんてグッズ系多そうだからダメージありそうだけど
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どの著作物も0からクリエイトされてないから
その意味で2次創作なんだよ。
だから著作権に対する変革がそろそろ必要。
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同人で儲け出してる人って税金どうなってるの?
まさか納めてないわけ…ないよね?
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金を回収もしくは儲けたいと思って良いのは完全オリジナルで出してる奴だけだ
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知り合いの同人書いてる奴に聞いたら、他社も規制して良いと思うって言ってたわ
実際趣味でやってるし、経費が浮いて打ち上げ出来る程度売れれば問題無いとの事
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107
払うことになっている。
ただ税務署がわかるぐらい儲けている所以外はわかりにくい。
ネットのアフェリサイトでもね。
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グッズ系を規制するのはいいアイデアだと思うけど同人誌もとなると・・・うーん
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しかし、「誤解を生まないテキストに」って、今更ガイドライン変更するのかねぇ
サークル活動休止宣言したりしてるとことかあったりと、既に「実害」がでてるのに
「社会的責任ある一企業」として、一度発表したことを「やっぱり違います」ってのはどうよ
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何かこの前と違って急にニトロに厳しい意見が多くなったな
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>>どの著作物も0からクリエイトされてないから
その意味で2次創作なんだよ。
他の作品から影響を受けるのと、他人の作品の設定やキャラクターをそのまま使うのとを同列にすべきじゃないだろ
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大手とかって確定申告してんの?
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2百部ってラインは変えねえんだろうな
つか10万の人間集まるイベントで全サークルが200部づつ
ってなったら阿鼻叫喚どころか一気にさめて同人イベントごと
消えさるぞ
いまさらお店役とお客役にわかれて買い物ごっこで和気藹々と
交流なんて初心にかえれる人数規模じゃねえだろ
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デモベと恋ドラくらいしか興味無いです
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上から目線の拝金主義上等の同人作家にも
強気に出たくせに簡単にイモ引くニトロにもうんざり
お前ら創作活動にもっと信念やプライド持てよ
それに、金儲けの為に描いた作品じゃ小金は稼げても大金は稼げないと思うで
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500部以上くらいじゃないと微妙だなあ
200部って赤字にならない最低ラインじゃね
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あまり深く物事を考えないでやっちゃう人なんだろうな。
余計なこと考える必要の無いところで目の前の仕事だけをしておいた方が良いと思う。
難しいことを考えるのは向いてないよ。
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パロディーにここまで厳しいの日本だけなんだよな
米国なら同人誌ぐらい創作性が高いものなら営利販売しても合法だぞ
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いや、発狂してた連中は営利になることを前提にしてる奴らだろw
非営利になんか興味が無い
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116
オリジナル描けばいいジャンじゃないの?
-
少なくとも大熊やなまにくやそに子の絵師はもう他社の二次同人で200部以上刷ってはいかんなw
-
大半のやつは200部も捌けないよねという実情があっても
そいつらだって200部以上売るつもりで描いてるよ
そのドリームを打ち砕かれたら雑なラフ本しか残らなそう
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125
まぁニトロが吹いてるだけの現状ならどうでも良い話なんだけどね
ときメモやポケモンみたいに避ければいいだけなので
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114
日本の現行法律ではあなたの書いた通りだが将来どうするかは別。
例えばウィキペディアのパロディ所にはこう書いてある
>フランスでは、著作権法第122条の5(4)項にて、パロディは著作権侵害でないと明文規定されている(パロディ条項)。
> "La parodie, le pastiche et la caricature, compte tenu des lois du genre"
-
文句言えばひっくり返る前例を作ってしまったのがイチバン駄目だろ
-
なんで叩かれてるのか理解できないんだが
これニトロ側からしたら相当譲歩してるだろ
-
200部じゃ上手い人は書かないだろ
仮に書いたとしてもほとんの人は入手出来ない
それに10万は印刷費、雑費、労力を引いたら赤字だろ
まあリスクしかないニトロ作品には手を出すなという事だな
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交通費と制作人権費を商材で回収したら営利活動だからな
非営利なら赤字にならなかったら奇跡、ぐらいに思っておけ
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129
そもそも何のために新設したガイドラインか意思や意図がわからんからじゃないの?
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大規模な規制したら200部以内の同人誌も廃れる可能性結構あると思うよ
やってみて廃れないなら良いかもしれんが
もし廃れちゃったらオタ系企業一掃されるのでは…
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115
税務所めっちゃ怖いよ
確定申告しないと即殺しに来る
大手どころか中規模でもやってる
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同人は趣味の範囲内でやればいいのに、利益を求める時点で終了だわな
公式がないと二次創作なんて出来やしないのに
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125
同人ドリーム()
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単にロイヤリティ払ってね、とかグッズ販売はワンフェスみたいに
許可とってねって言えばここまで反感買うことなかったろうに
部数制限だの売り上げ制限だの手渡し限定、法人化しろ、委託禁止とか
こと細かにネチネチやるやり口が嫌われたんだろうね
艦これぐらいユルけりゃ客も増えたろうに。完全にオタ気質と親和性ゼロのやり方だったわ
規制とか数字とかオタが一番嫌う要素だし、オタは冷めたら戻らない
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※131
んで参加者の大半はそういう層なわけだ
よく言われてる儲けが出てる1、2割の層ってのは
ほぼ業界人(アニメ、漫画、ゲーム制作のプロ)なわけで
-
やっぱこれはコミケに参加してる
プロに対しての話ですかねー
-
同人が規制されたら死活問題の連中が一杯いるんだろうな
反発の仕方がすごいわw
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137
本丸はグッズ潰しならそれをピンポイントにすればよかったのにね
どうも網を張りすぎて誤解招きまくったのが敗因かと思う
艦これのガイドラインはバランス良かったんだなって思った
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>>137
同人に買う層にとっては
部数制限?委託禁止?ふざけんな!地方にいるオタは手軽に買えなくなるだろ!!
キレるわ。
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実際同人屋には限りなく黒に近いグレーゾーンを綱渡りしてる自覚のない奴多いからな
あくまで同人ってのは権利者が黙認して下さっているからこそ出来る活動ってことを忘れちゃいけないよね
最強は権利者で、同人屋はそのおこぼれに群がる蛆みたいなもんなんだから
-
まあこれにめげずに該当サークル各位には個人HPで通販とかしてほしいよ
手数料が多少かかっても仕方ないね
片田舎に住む俺にとってはD○siteとかBO○THとか重宝してたけど
便利すぎたといっちゃそうかもしれん
-
この言い方だとそに子のエロ抱き枕とかを堂々と売ってたグッズ屋が本来のターゲットだったんだろ
-
これニトロの原画とグラフィッカー同人活動しにくくならないか?
-
売上-(印刷代+即売会参加費)がx万超えたら営利目的と認定するから
該当する人は著作権使用料y%払ってね、でいいじゃん。
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>>144
面倒だからニトロは避けるわw
はいさようなら。
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グッズ規制とロイヤリティはいいんだけど
他が喰えないアニメーターの命綱切る行為だよなぁ
数年したら隣国産のアニメばっかになったりしてなwww
-
なんかニトロがイメージ落としたとか言われてるけど
いちユーザーからしたら淡々とエロゲを買うだけですわ
まぁそもそも最近のニトロはまとまにエロゲ作ってないけどな!
ドグラQはよ作れや鋼屋
-
なにビビってるんだ
同人ゴロなんて潰してええやろ
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147
法人化されてないと一切認められないらしいぞ
個人で法人となると年700万くらいは利益ないとまったくメリットがないけど
そんな同人長者壁だってそんないないわw
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>>151
オタには同人ゴロなんて関係ねーからな。
同人が買いにくくなるだと!ニトロ最低!!
その程度の思考にしかならんw
-
もしニトロプラスの従業員が他社の作品の同人200部以上売ったりしたら
吊るし上げられそう
-
クオリティの高い同人誌を書けと言いながら「利益は上げるな、1円でも利益が上がれば営利目的だ」と言ってる読者が厄介なんだろうな
もしかしかしたら単に儲けてる奴が憎いだけかもしれんがw
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※140
同人を商売と考えてるやつほど反発してるみたいだな。
ちなみに、プロの漫画家や絵師になる同人作家はだいたい二次創作やるより、主にオリジナル書い
てる人が多い。
実際、TYPE-MOONのキャラクターデザインやってる武内氏の同人時代はオリジナルを主にやってました。
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※154
チャイカの絵師は進撃とか艦これの本だしてるからアウトだな
-
版元がそういうなら従いますよ
でももちろんニトロの社員さんも他社の版権で荒稼ぎなんてしないでくださいね
自分のところは規制して他所の版権で設けようなんて思わないでね
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>ちなみに、プロの漫画家や絵師になる同人作家はだいたい二次創作やるより、主にオリジナル書い
てる人が多い。
またそういう嘘を平気いうw
-
な?
-
同人ガチャとかメロンや虎にあるもんな
さすがにやりすぎ
-
各方面からパクリまくってアニメを作ってるお宅のライターも、早いとこ規制した方がいいんじゃないですかね
-
一方とらのあなの子会社になったアクアプラス(リーフ)
-
どっちにしろ200部じゃ苦労して本を出す意味が無いんだから書かなきゃ済む事
ニトロがやりたいようにやらせればいいじゃない
-
「書店委託禁止」
-
まぁとりあえずニトロ作品は誰も描かなくなるだろ
わかりやすくなりそうなのがそに子くらいか
あんま影響ないな
-
>>163
同人規制をやったけど
東鳩2の頃には何か有耶無耶になってしまったw
-
そういえば放送されるアキバの書店のアニメの作者って
二次創作の同人誌書いてるよね
もし200部以上売ってたり委託販売してたら彼も罵声浴びせられるのかな?
-
同人の営利と非営利の明確且つ客観的な線引きなんて実質不可能だよ。
収支報告書でも提出させるのかい?それとも踏み絵でもするのかい?
だから基本黙認で、たまに「行き過ぎた」奴を見せしめに訴える方法が
消去法で残ったという歴史があるのに何を今更言ってんだこいつは。
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>>169
ましてやニトロの二次創作でそれを見分けるってさらに無理ゲーだな
少なくとも俺は観測できない
-
>>同人の営利と非営利の明確且つ客観的な線引きなんて実質不可能だよ。
それを200部というラインにしたんでしょ
収支じゃなくて規模で判断するというのはわかりやすい
-
誤解があろうがなかろうが、すでにアンチ同人の我々はあれが不磨の大典であると認識してるし、あのガイドラインを基に違反サークルは徹底的に通報していく。
後はニトロ側が通報をむげに扱うようなことがあれば、まどか事件以上に叩くことになるだろうね
-
この人言ってる事がアホすぎてw
利益が出るから金に困っている下積み達の糧となるわけで
部数が増えるからこそスカウトの目にもとまるわけで。
200部ぽっきりって事は同人なんかやらんでバイトでもしながら
持ち込み等しろって言ってるわけでしょ?
この数字が標準になったら同人からの新人クリエイターなんてほとんど
でてこねーわ ぺっ
-
ニトロ同人にガイドライン設けること自体は賛成だが、グッズやら何やらで儲けまくってる会社が規制するよーって説得力欠片もないわ
ニトロに限ったことじゃなくて、業界全体に言えることだけど
あとニトロは社員に同人活動させんなよ。示しがつかんわ
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164
でじたろう氏も言ってるけど、そういう規制が広がると二次コンテンツ業界が死ぬ
だから色々喚いてたんだよ
消費者はゴロが偉そうにって考えかもしれないけど
言い方は悪いが業界にはいらないとこの危機感は共有できない
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>>171
それを厳正にチェックするの無理やで?
-
今後ニトロ社員の同人誌の販売部数とか物凄い注目されそう
-
>>そういえば放送されるアキバの書店のアニメの作者って
二次創作の同人誌書いてるよね
もし200部以上売ってたり委託販売してたら彼も罵声浴びせられるのかな?
200部はニトロだけだから、他のところの作品だったら今は見逃してもらえてる
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>>168
そういう空気が情勢されるのが一番マイナスだよな、今回の事例は
ニトロの見解が嫌儲厨にとって錦の御旗になって、絵師叩きの格好の材料になりかねない
-
きっとニトロはコミケ当日にもきっと「ニトロ警察」を派遣して200部以上配布する壁サークルに対して差し止めをしてくれる。昔アクアスタイルのアンパンマンスパロボネタの動画ソフトを頒布当日に差し止めて段ボールごと回収したサンライズのごとく徹底的にやってくれるに違いない。
だから俺たちはニトロを応援してるんだ。
まさか、ガイドラインだけ公表して運用はしないなんて、馬鹿なマネはしないはず
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179
わかっていたけど誰も得しないな・・・
-
>営利目的の同人グッズ等が増え続けている現状を何らかの形で線引したいのです
元の文章見る限りは、それどころじゃなかったんだが・・同人規制も同然としか思えない内容だったよ
それに200部でも利益出る人は出るだろ
というか、これってコミケ自体完全否定だよね。大手なんて何千部と売るところだってあるんだから
-
>>利益が出るから金に困っている下積み達の糧となるわけで
部数が増えるからこそスカウトの目にもとまるわけで。
収入はアルバイトすればいいし、デビューしたければ新人賞に応募したり出版社に持ち込みに行けばいい
スカウトとか夢見すぎwww
-
ガイドライン違反は徹底的に罵倒し晒していく
これ以外に何か必要かね?
-
営利非営利の線引きが曖昧だっていう
やら管はただのアマチュア。
プロはそこがシビアだから曖昧なのは
死活問題なわけ。
-
でもそうするとプロは同人で版権描けなくなるじゃん
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173
そういうこと
綺麗事だけじゃないんだよこの業界
自分だけ潔癖ですよなんて顔できる立場じゃない
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>>179
ニトロの規制を利用して人気同人作家を叩けると喜々として書き込んでる人間がいるよねw
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156
その頃の同人界隈の規模今の何分の一だよ
今でもオリジナルで稼げる人もいるけど、ほとんど二次創作でファン作ってからだし
そもそも買う側の要求するクオリティがどんどん上がってんのに、趣味で作った本のレベルじゃ埋もれるだけだよ
同人は商売じゃないとか偉そうに言うくせに、そういう奴らは隙間のピコ手の本買い支えてないじゃん
皆こぞって大手シャッターばっか行ってる状況で言われてもねぇ
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183
でも今の業界盛り上げてるのそんなんばっかやで?
そのおかげで全体の技術力もインフレってる現状で
育てる手間が省けてる側面がありんす
-
要するに嘘でもいいから原作をリスペクトするフリしとけって事だろ?
もう当日にそのジャンルのクイズ出して答えられなかったら頒布停止でいいじゃん。
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183
持ち込みとかジャンプかなんかっすかね、志高い
オタ系の雑誌とかスカウトしまくりじゃん
コミケで営業してんのくらい知ってるだろ
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187
ろくにゲーム作らず権利ゴロ化してるニトロが一番分かってると思ってたんだけどなぁ
むしろそれで麻痺しちゃったのかなぁ
-
ニトロは素晴らしいガイドラインを策定したと思うよ
・ポルノ作成者に対しては、「200部限にさせることでヒトの褌で余計な収入を得させない、けど絵の練習として版権使わせてやるよ」と寛大で
・ポルノ購入者は「徹夜、サークルチケット購入、転売屋からの購入等、いかなる手段を用いても本当に熱意をもってニトロ版権の為に動いてくれる100名前後には特別に購入させてシコシコする許可を与えてやる。」と涙の出るくらい寛大だ
私たちは従わなきゃ、神様が授けたガイドラインなんだから
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193
権利ゴロにとって邪魔なのは、自分以外の権利ゴロ。
つまりそういうことよ。
-
173
なるほどこれが「同人ドリーム」って奴か
夢見すぎだよ
-
だってスペース構えてると出版社の編集とかよく仕事の話持ちかけてくるぜ?
ドリームというほど馬鹿馬鹿しいもんじゃなくてもう立派な営業の場だよ実際は
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193
CS(笑)畑に顔出ししすぎて、エロゲメーカーってこと失念したんじゃないの?
エロゲ会社とか、二次創作に救われてない人のほうが少数でしょ
延期が当たり前、万本売れるのが夢の世界なのに、グラフィッカーとかどうやって食っていけっていう
-
プロの二次創作が200部以下だとかむしろ迷惑なので
プロ、セミプロの作家の方には今後一切二次創作は描かないで頂きたい
絶対に手に入らないので目に毒だし、
同人ゴロより汚い存在である転売で暮らす奴が増えて社会的に迷惑だわ
-
少なくとも同人描きがニトロから忌避的に離れていくだけじゃなく
ファン活動的にやっているニトロ描きすら批判の対象にされかねない
ちょっと人気が出たら、申告したんですか?とか内容は許可を得たんですか?とか
200部超えてるんじゃないの?とか
今回のガイドラインをネタにネチネチ絡んでくる人間が必ず出てくる
地味にこういう規制ってのはコンテンツの活力を削いでいくんだよ
-
商業だけじゃ食っていけないから同人もやってる漫画家も多いのにな
何もわからず同人批判とかしてるのバカなの?
同人規制すればその人達は本業だけでは食べていけなくなる
漫画家をあきらめる=今描いてる連載もやめざるを得なくなる
それがお前の好きな漫画だったらどうすんだよ
ただ一枚絵をグッズとして金儲けしようとすんのはダメだけどな
-
赤字になってまでニトロ作品を盛り上げる謂れは無いよね
どうご勝手にw
-
企業がグッズ販売で儲けるのと同人屋が企業に関係あるグッズで儲けるのは違うんじゃねーの
-
>>趣味で作った本のレベルじゃ埋もれるだけだよ
同人の二次創作は、ファン活動なんだから埋もれていいんだよ
規定を越えるなら権力者の許諾を得ればいいだけで、他人の作品を無断で使って儲けるなという単純な話なんだから
そもそも、オリジナルなら、どんな規模でやってもいいし、どれだけ稼いでも非難されることなんてないんだし
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197
てか島中レベルでも普通に営業来るよね
夢見すぎって、どんだけ凄いことだと勘違いしてるんだろ?
やっすい原稿料で何P、単発の仕事とかよほど宣伝にでもならない限り受ける意味もないわな
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>>204
単純な話って、それで醸成された業界で単純に行くわけ無いだろ
お前風に言うと犯罪者の巣窟なわけ
そこで正論言ってももうどうにもこうにも行かないんだよ
-
※159
だって、TYPE-MOONの武内氏の無名時代の同人もってるけど、もうすぐエネルギー切れになる
郵便配達員アンドロイドのオリジナル話だったよ。
あと、アニメにもなったエマってメイド漫画の作者、作家の方だけどTYPE-MOONの奈須きのこ、
ガンダム戦記と言ったガンダム関連書いてる夏元氏、今でも同人活動してる風雲児たち
って漫画書いてる作者、最近コミケで見かけた数十万部だか売った失踪日記の吾妻ひでお、
SAOの作者、ヴァンガード・戦国大戦でキャラクター描いてるタカヤマトシアキとかがいるよ。
もし、夏コミ行く機会あるなら、二次創作の他にオリジナルの方へ行ってみると良いかもよ。
将来プロになる可能性の人や、実際に商業誌で書いてる人に会えるかもね。
-
本は問題じゃねぇよ
基本的に騒がれてんのはグッズだ
-
>>188
もはや業界標準になったかのような勢いで構えてるよな
-
207
それで殆どそんな人ばっかなの?
それは嘘でしょ?
-
※201
そうそう、終いに本来の仕事である連載をおろそかにしたら本末転倒だよね。
-
>>208
グッズは200「部」とかいう数え方はしないし、「書店」委託もありません。
最初から同人誌を規制する気満々だったのを、叩かれたので慌てて言い訳して逃げてるだけです。
-
2次創作叩く連中は同人作家は同人誌を売って大金を得る
「同人ドリーム」を夢見ていると思っているようだが
同人誌に過剰な期待(願望)をして同人ドリームを夢見ているのは現実を知らない叩いている連中の方じゃないかといいたくなる。
-
まぁた寄生虫のゴネ得が通るのかよwww
-
>>それで醸成された業界で単純に行くわけ無いだろ
お前風に言うと犯罪者の巣窟なわけ
そこで正論言ってももうどうにもこうにも行かないんだよ
今までルールがなかったから作りました、というのはそんなにおかしな話か?
-
210
嘘だよ
-
214
君も嫌儲の違反同人サークル晒しに参加するんだ、俺たちが警察だ
-
215
業界の構造的に最適解であるのが現状で
そこに理由のよくわからないローカルルールを持ってくるのがいたら
まず批判や疑念が出てくるのは当たり前だろ
つまり正真正銘おかしな話なわけだ
正しいか正しくないかの話ではないんよ
-
>>最初から同人誌を規制する気満々だったのを、叩かれたので慌てて言い訳して逃げてるだけです。
ファン活動の枠を越えた、同人という皮を被った営利目的の活動を規制してるだけじゃん
-
いまさらおせーよ馬鹿
慢心から全オタクを敵にまわしたな
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219
それなら面倒なガイドライン作らなくてもピンポイントにコラ!って叱れば対処できるわけで
ニトロの同人なんてそれこそ絶対数少ないんだし
グッズならもっとダイレクトに注意できる
-
ニトロの社員にも同人ゴロが居る様なので
企業として責任を取るように追求していかねば
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215
おかしいとかおかしくないじゃなくて、業界が死ぬ(と思ってる層が一定数以上いる)
だから抵抗するんだよ
外から見れ盗人猛々しいとしか思わないだろうが、現状同人があることを前提として成り立ってる部分が大いにあるわけで
本当こればっかりは中と外じゃ意識が違うから言っても伝わらない
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まあでもあれだ
東京とか大阪とか行ったこと無いからわからんが
九州の某即売会で何度も見た、いかにもグッズショップ然としてるけど企業じゃない
アレなサークルって、東○ばっかりだよな
(あそこのガイドラインは言わずもがなだし)
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205
なんでそんなそんなプライドだけ馬鹿高いの?
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222
徹底的に追求していこうぜ、壁サークルも含めて
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212
そもそもロイヤリティさえ払えば200部以上作っていいんだが?
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>>業界の構造的に最適解であるのが現状で
そこに理由のよくわからないローカルルールを持ってくるのがいたら
まず批判や疑念が出てくるのは当たり前だろ
最適解だとどうして判断できるの? 現状で不利益があるから、同人活動と営利活動を線引きしたんでしょ?
ルールというのは運用しながら修正されていくものだから、心配しなくても不具合があれば変わっていくよ
-
版権持ってる側が対応しきれないうちに、すばやく醸成された業界を作り上げた
「自分で描いた本を売るのは(たとえ何らかの権利を侵害していても)セーフ!」という他では通用しないローカルルールを作り上げた
立体物関連は出遅れなかったので、きちんと版権で手綱を取れるようになった
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単純な話 まるCがついてないグッズを
調子こいてさばいてんじゃねーよってことだろ?
薄い本も200コンスタントにさばけるならちょっとペイしろよ
ってことだろ?
どこに発狂する要素があるんだか・・・
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228
出来の悪い改正案でバランス悪いからだよw
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※210
確かに、東方の二次創作からプロになった人はよく見かけるけどね。
ところで、逆に聞くけど、「それは嘘でしょ?」というなら、嘘でしょと言えて、二次創作から
デビューした人が多い何か推論建てられる根拠があるの?教えて。
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>>225
意味がわからん
むしろお前は聞いたこともないような出版社がじっと座ってるだけで才能ある奴が持ち込みに来ると本気で思ってんのかい?
お仕事待ってますってメアド載せてるんだからそこメール送ったり、でてるイベントに直接行って名刺渡したりするだろ
なにもメジャー雑誌のこと言ってるわけじゃないんで
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227
200部は個人の頒布で最大値
それ以上は法人として許諾を得なさいって話だよ
だから画期的なんじゃない
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227
ん?ロイヤリティ払うだけじゃ駄目だよ?ちゃんと読め
-
まぁ実質200以上刷るなってのと同義なんだな
-
推論wwww
論に詰まるやつほど、推論だの根拠だの聞いちゃうんだよね
-
何千部販売してる同人作家とか嫌儲連中には目に毒だわな
でも今の漫画等の作家って元同人ゴロや現同人ゴロが一杯居るよね
エロ漫画の作家とか現同人ゴロ物凄く多そう
サブカル企業と切り離せない様な気がしてならないんだが
本当に同人ゴロ全排除してもこの産業大丈夫なん?
同人ゴロ排除って全てが台無しになりかねない危険な賭けなのでは…
-
営業たくさん来る割には同人出身で売れてる人そこまで見ないな。
たぶん声かけられても連載掴むまでに結構消えて連載しても2巻くらいで打ち切られて同人に戻るんだろうな。
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233
出版社は大手から零細まで色んな人来るからなw
んで今はそういうとこに顔出してる編集さんのが強い
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238
いえ、単に他人が儲けるのが気に入らないだけです
絵でオナニーはしたいけど、それに金なんか払いたくないですし、それで儲けるなんてもってのほかです
産業?どうでもいいです
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239
同人に戻れるという選択肢があるから素晴らしいのではなくて?
よく考えてごらんよ
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※237
じゃあ何で、こっちに聞いたの?
オリジナルから作家になる人が多いのかと聞かれて、作者を出して答えたのにそんなの嘘だと
言ってきたんだから、推論建てられる根拠が無いとおかしいでしょ?
-
エロゲ作ってるところって同人と大差ないと思ってたわw
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239
お前は同人出身かどうか逐一把握できんのか
しかも語り口漫画限定だし
そもそも言っとくが商業やったからって同人やめる訳じゃないで
むしろ、最近は同人の宣伝になるから商業やって、同人が売れて更に上の商業を目指すんやで
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238
エロ漫画のレベル水準が上がったのって間違いなく二次創作同人とかで研鑽したからだろうしなぁw
tosh先生見てみなよ
今やジャンプ作家やで
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242 だからニトロに続いて他の企業も規制してきたら困るからあんだけ発狂してる人いたのか。
2軍がなくなるんだもんな。
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>>エロゲ作ってるところって同人と大差ないと思ってたわw
オリジナル作品でさえあれば、プロも素人も同じように著作権を主張できるよ
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234,235
ごめん勘違いしてた売り上げだけがOKなのね
でもやっぱ無制限に同人活動されると版権元に金納めてる正規の企業が損するだけだと思う
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(たぶんぶっ叩かれると思うが)
223
>本当こればっかりは中と外じゃ意識が違うから言っても伝わらない
俺も同人描きの端くれだが
実際、
机の挟んだ作る側と買う側だけでも意識、認識がまったくちがう
ましてイベントに来ない人間や同人にかかわっていない人間にはいくら説明しても
判るわけがない
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238
大丈夫じゃないから騒いでるんよ
ぶっちゃけエロ漫画とか雑誌もコミックスも全然売れない
その原稿料と印税だけで生活なんて、とてもじゃないけど無理な人が大半
赤松大先生なんかはそりゃあ儲けてらっしゃるから大きい事言えるでしょうけど
コンビニバイトしてた方がいいってなったら、人も才能も消えて台湾か韓国あたりに移って終いよ
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※232
コミケではオリジナル作品が圧倒的に少ないし売れないからね
同人上がりで二次創作に手を出して無い作家の方が稀だろ
その吾妻ひでおもアニパロ書いてたの知ってる?
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243
指で数えられる程度の作家だけ指摘して、オリジナル上がりの方が作家になる人が多いって言ってて自分でおかしいと思わない?
ってか、作家の定義は何よ?商業ベース?健全な商業?エロ業界の商業?ゲームの原画?ラノベの挿絵?キャリアアップってのはそれこそいくらだってあるのにそもそも君の論がさも正しいように定義を歪曲するなと
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>>机の挟んだ作る側と買う側だけでも意識、認識がまったくちがう
利権団体に天下った公務員と世間との意識の乖離みたいなものか
確かに平行線で相容れないね
-
まあこんなとこに書き込んでる奴が声かけられて売れっ子になるなんてないから安心しろ
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254
>利権団体に天下った公務員
天下れるほど同人描きは優秀じゃねえよ(笑)
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250
だよなぁ
週刊漫画とか基準にして、オフセの同人一冊なんて数日で簡単に作れるでしょ?
とか思ってる人も多いくらいだからな
アシ何人雇うんだよ?その金は?月単位でかかるわ!っていう
仕方ないけどね
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255
おお!一応自作がアニメ化にもなったわ
ここでもまとめられてたぞ
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238
だから200まではOKって言ってるでしょ?
「ファン活動」なんでしょ?
まさか他人の商売道具パクって「営利活動」してるわけじゃないでしょ?
けんもー云々以前の問題だろうに
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259
よっけんもー
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俺にいわせりゃ界に来る奴の方がどうかしてると思うわ
エロ本買いに来てるんだぜ、異常だわ
聞きたいんだけど、ああいううっすいエロ本買って抜いたらどうすんの?
後生大事に持ってんの?
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259
今の状況が純粋なファン活動なわけないやん
コミケなりなんなり行けば分かるだろ
だからコミケ側も企業ブースとか作って見て見ぬふりを暗に要求してきたわけで
正論振りかざしても意味ないよ
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258 一気に胡散臭くなった。
-
259
正直に言っちゃえよ
他人が儲けるのが気に入らないと
さぁ
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261
同人=エロの時点でもうね
-
許可さえ取れば200部以上出してもいいのだから、何を憤慨しているのやら
無許可で二次創作物を一定数以上頒布するなというだけなのに…
-
こんなコメン出さなきゃいけないなんてニトロもキチ相手に大変だな
-
人のフンドシでメシ食ってるヤツは、
金を払えばいいだけ
当たり前なこと
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264 世の中には他人が儲けるのを潰すことに命を懸けてる人もいるんだよ。そしてその人たちのほうが正しかったら潰される。
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262
暗に要求って、嫌なら企業ブース参加しなきゃいいんやで?
コミケ限定グッズとかせっせと作って、声優イベをやって未成年をエロ本販売会場に誘因してまで売上上げてる以上同じ穴のムジナですよ
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258 誰かつっこめよ…
-
>>267
だってそのキチ界隈出身ですし
今のエロゲ業界なんてほとんどそうだろ
こみパで同人の理念謳ってた葉っぱでさえ今となっては虎の子飼いだぞ?
>>268
皆でふんどしとり合ってんだよ
そんな業界なんだ
ブラック企業に正論言っても伝わらないのと同じで、当たり前なんか通用しない
-
オリジナルって言っているヤツ、
商業誌やアニメにまったく出ていないキャラの同人だらけの
コミケって逝ってみたいか?
そうなると企業参加も限定グッズも無しになるんやで?
悪夢の黒歴史にしかならんわ
-
200部じゃ本を出す意味が無いから人気作家は誰も書かないだろ
ニトロファンは売れない作家の同人誌を買えばいいんだよ
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269
それが俺たちだろ
ニトロがひよってガイドラインを変えようとしてるけどそんなのどうでもいい、200部以上売ってるサークルを見つけたら徹底的に晒して追いつめようぜ、兄弟。
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273 企業ブースとコスプレだけでいい。
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276
何他人の版権でコスプレしてるんだ、金を払え
-
まあ、同人なくなってもこっちにはなんの影響も
ないんですけどねw争え、もっと争えw
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270
いや、だから持ちつ持たれつの状況になってるっていう話よ
だから二次創作を黙認してたわけでな
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275 ああ、ツイッターが役に立つかもしれんな。
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276
その企業はどこの企業だよ
エロゲ関係とか二次創作が黒なら軒並み死ぬぞ
後ろ暗い奴らばかりなんだから
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279 今後の展開に注目だな。いらないと判断されたら他の会社も規制くるぞ。
-
ねえ、みんななんでこんな夜中までネットやってんの仕事は?
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>>275
ニトロは同人活動を潰したいだけの人間に餌を与えちゃったねw
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282
零細ばっかだから無いと思いたいが
角川とか?お前が言うなの筆頭だが、一番言いそうでもある
まぁここが言ったら同人終了だわな
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※252
別に二次創作に手を出してることは否定してないよ。
ただ、吾妻ひでおもそのうちオリジナルも同時に出し、最近見た同人誌では最終的に主に内容がオリジナル
ばっかになってたよ。
ゼノサーガのキャラデザインやら、最近はISの挿絵書いてる人も最初はEVAの二次創作から
始まったけど、そのうちにほとんどの内容がオリジナルに関する同人の画集を出してる。
-
許可さえもらえば200以上刷っていいんだぞ?
とか言ってるやつはもう発言すんな
この話題を何もわかってねぇ
278
何の影響もない人が何でやらおん見てんの?
-
あかん!200部が ひとり歩きしている
これは、映画けいおん!の24回シートみたいだ
「でじたろう」さん! やっちまったなw
これは業界内の各方面から叩かれまくるでー
とにかく金額とか数字を出した時点で大失敗だよ!
せめて経費を差し引いたわかりにくい純利益とかにしておけば良かったのに
-
>>200部じゃ本を出す意味が無いから人気作家は誰も書かないだろ
そもそも、ファン活動に人気作家様がいるというのがおかしな状態なんだが…
一定以上の規模でやるならそれは営利活動と見なされるけど、許可さえ取ればやってもいいんだよ
許可を取ることって、そんなにハードルが高いのだろうか?
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285 角川か。確かにこの前のニコニコ(表現規制派の麻生と関係あり)との経営統合とか何するかわからんからな。
-
他人の売り上げを潰したところで自分が裕福になるわけでもあるまいし
嫌儲というのは理解に苦しむ生き物だな。
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282
この記事とコメ見てるだけでも、ニトロは同人屋と同人つぶし隊の双方から突き上げ食らってて、これに便乗したらリスクしかないと俺が経営者ならなら思うわ
-
× でじだろう
○ でじたろう
名前間違えないでね
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290
ニコ超なんちゃらじゃ、普通に同人誌即売会してたような・・・
あ
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純利益10万までとかならまだよかったかもな
それなら地方の人は遠征費にはなるわけだし。
ボロ儲けって額でもないだろ
-
※253
いくらでもあるって何があるの?
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291 プロ野球チーム応援してるけど優勝したらどうなるの?得するのって言うのと同じ。
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294 なんか悪い予感するよね。
-
>>オリジナルって言っているヤツ、
商業誌やアニメにまったく出ていないキャラの同人だらけの
コミケって逝ってみたいか?
同人のエリアが狭くなって、企業ブースが広くなるかもね
公式のグッズが手に入れやすくなるのは喜ばしいことだな
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283
マンガ関係者は夜仕事なんだよ!
特に夏場の昼間なんて、暑くて仕事にならんだろ
-
292 今作戦会議中だろうな。どっちが儲かるか、はたまたうやむやにするか。
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299
コミケット側が許さんだろそれは
-
あ~あ、他のエロゲ会社とかは
自社作品オンリーの即売会とかに参加したりしてるのに
ニトロは自らファンを足蹴にするとは・・・
終わりの始まりかもしれんね
-
300
だったら、こんな最低峰のところから足を洗って真面目に漫画を描いてろ
-
絵で食えるの増やすのそんなにダメ?
同人で食える奴って大体プロになるんでしょ?なら同類やん
そいつが書いた作品はまた別の同人作家が絵を描いてと循環もしてそう
オリジナルで食っていける天才は少数だし同人はスルーしてプロになるよ
他の仕事せずに絵で食える人間増やすには
二次創作同人作家黙認するのは一つの手だと思うけど…
-
299 なるほど。企業ブースでなのはが落選したこともあったしいいかもな。
-
何か問題でも?
今までが緩すぎたんでしょ?
-
306
企業ブースがなんで出来たのかを一回勉強してこい
作家の支持失ったらコミケ自体成り立たんわ
-
305 残念だがそれはない。ドラフト指名された人が全員活躍できるわけじゃないように。
-
292
ニトロだってわかっておったろうに
だからみんな黙認がモアベターで目に余るのがいたら見せしめに処刑するがベストだと
-
>曖昧
その曖昧さを線引きするのが経営者だろ
-
289
>そもそも、ファン活動に人気作家様がいるというのがおかしな状態なんだが…
本気で言ってるなら人生やり直したほうがいい割とマジで
活動する以上、絵の腕前やら面白さで人気に差が出るのは当たり前のことだよな
こういう人ってどういう思考して生きてるんだ
-
309
一番重要なのは裾野を広げることだよな
-
>>あ~あ、他のエロゲ会社とかは
自社作品オンリーの即売会とかに参加したりしてるのに
ニトロは自らファンを足蹴にするとは・・・
終わりの始まりかもしれんね
200部以上の二次創作物を無断で頒布するのはファンじゃなくて著作権の侵害をするやつだと定義したから、ニトロとしてはファンを足蹴にしていない
同人が読めないと憤慨してるやつは同人作家のファンであって、ニトロのファンではないということでもあるのだろうさ
-
>>そもそも、ファン活動に人気作家様がいるというのがおかしな状態なんだが…
絵の上手い人は作品のファンにならないのか?
売れるのは結果でしかない
売れたらファン活動をやめろという事の方がおかしいのでは
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305
その認識は極めて正しいよ
腕を磨いてる二次同人作家がプロになる→一次創作描く→アニメになる→その作品の二次創作が出る(以下ループ
って循環はすでにしまくってるしね
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311
それで業界潰しちゃったら元も子もないし
サビ残とか有給もそうだろ
オタ業界なんて零細ブラックばっかなのに正論言ってたら死にます
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314
お前はどうしても机上の空論を打ちたいんだろうけど
人間そう都合良く動かないよ
-
でじたろう・虚淵「いままで二次創作でマーケティングしてたけど、まどかで社屋も新しくなったし、これからは200部以上同人作るなら法人窓口通して許諾と審査を受けてね」
同人屋「なら書かねーよ危なっかしい」
キモヲタ「そにこ?なにそれ?エロ同人ないんならつまらない作品なんでしょ?スルーっしょ」
同人つぶし隊「おう、ニトロ、せっかく違反サークル密告するんだから徹底的に潰してくれや、まさか運用はざるなんてしねぇだろうな?仏作って魂入れずみたいな舐めた真似したらてめぇらケンモウでぶっ叩くぞ」
でじたろう・虚淵「(><;)」
そりゃ言い訳始めるわけだわwwww
-
lose-loseなルールは不毛だだけなんだとこの件でよく分かった
-
ドヘンタイなエロ同人を審査に出す勇気!
しかも却下される勇気!
却下された漫画を廃棄する勇気!
-
オリジナルだけになったら会場の規模が縮小して企業ブースは減る
こんなことが分からないのがいるのか
-
規制の好きなヤツは中華人民共和国かイラクにでも行け!
嫌儲の他人の利益を嫌うヤツは北朝鮮に行け!
それで二度と帰って来るなよ、イラナイから。
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319
見える!見えるぞ!このままニトロ作品を同人が扱わなくなり
規定も形骸化して結果なにも何も変わらず残らない未来が
心配は杞憂だわ
-
322
二次創作減ったら印刷代高騰してオリジナルも駄目になるでしょ
腐向けとか壊滅に近い
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316
二次創作から一次創作(オリジナル)ルートが駄目になる⇒漫画会の崩壊だ!とはならない。
一次創作は他にもアシスタントから(ジャンプ等少年誌に多い)、持ち込み、エロ漫画家から等ほかにもあるし二次創作より多い。
あくまで漫画だけでアニメまで含めるとラノベやエロゲと他のもある。
-
社員の同人活動に対して厳しい制限を設けてるなんてアリスソフトくらいだろう。
ニトロはなんだかんだでゆるゆる。
-
>>絵の上手い人は作品のファンにならないのか?
売れるのは結果でしかない
売れたらファン活動をやめろという事の方がおかしいのでは
絵や話がよくていい評価を受けるのは自然なことだけど、あまり大きな規模でやっちゃうと、それはファン活動の枠を越えちゃうよね…という話
需要に応えて供給するわけだから、趣味の活動とはちょっと違うでしょ
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325
これ前の記事でやり玉に挙がった漫画家が当然の流れとして危惧してたんだけど
結局外野は誰も理解できてなかったよな
-
ぶっちゃけ同人屋だけじゃなく販売してるとらのあなやメロンも同人ゴロを助長してるからそいつらも一気に反対に回ってんじゃねえかな
-
324
そしてニトロはマーケティングをよりステ/ルス企業にお願いしなきゃいけなくなり、だからといって二次創作されないから費用対効果も大幅減かつ費用高騰
いったい何年でスカイツリーの新社屋から足立の雑居ビルに再移転することになるんだろうか
-
昔ゲームが大ヒットして二次創作訴えたら続編が全く売れなかったゲームがあったような
-
326
だれもそこまで言ってねーよw何でお前は0か100でしかものが見れんのだ?
そういう流れもかなり存在してるんだからって話よOK?
-
323 勝手に人を移動させようとするお前はロシアでも行け
-
322
オリジナルだけになったら、参加者(買う側)が来なくて、コミケ終了だろ
-
333 だからその流れがなくなるから規制はよくないとはならない。
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327
今後はだめだな。少なくとも自分らで決めた規定レベルで締め付けないと筋が通らない
-
>>規制の好きなヤツは中華人民共和国かイラクにでも行け!
規制じゃなくて、同人活動と営利活動の境界線を定めただけでしょ
で、営利活動になる場合は許可を取ってやってね…というのが、そんなに顰蹙を買うようなことなのだろうか
-
335
それでいいやん
-
ちなみに夏コミに参加するニトロ絵師ってどんくらいいるの?
-
355 どうせ東京オリンピックの邪魔だしなくなるだろ
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>>338
だからお前は何も理解する気がないんだから諦めろって
すっとぼけるように「何が悪いの?」って間抜けな事一生言ってなさい
-
同人ゴロの寄生虫に粘着されるニトロプラスも可愛そうだな・・・
-
そういや、ニトロってシュタゲの件でTMAを訴えたんだよねー
つまりそれが上手くいったから味を占めたわけだな。
今回もその流れを使ったら、とんでもない騒ぎになった(笑)
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343
けんもうさんの粘着が一番害悪だけどな
-
どうせ乞食が発狂してるだけでしょ?
なんで権利者が権利主張して叩かれてんだよwww
モンスターペアレントかよ
-
344 騒ぎって同人作家がTwitterで騒いでるだけじゃん。
-
346
こういう馬鹿が意見するのが一番モンスター
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344
やらかんも言ってるけど、これとんでもない騒ぎになってんの?
犯罪者が騒いでるだけなんじゃないの?
-
345
348
お前はとりあえず落ち着け
-
コメ欄見てると今までは見逃してもらってただけなのに
いつの間にかめちゃくちゃ調子に乗ってる乞食が出てきたな
-
社長がいくらフォローしても企業としてのニトロ+は根底で脱キモヲタ同人論が大勢を占めてるんだろ?
底辺へ媚びへつらって少ない利益と権利意識が無駄に高いキモヲタを相手にするくらいなら、朝鮮玉入れにコンテンツ売った方がより利益が入るし紳士的な朝鮮人と取引ができる
-
そういや結局百田の件、キモオタが絡んだで終わったな。
-
344
TMAを訴えたのは、後にも先にもニトロプラスだけか
なるほどね
-
351 だから成敗されてるんだよ。
-
349
351
火消にもなってない
-
ニトロ同人を作らなきゃ済む話だろ
200部とかコピー誌の数だぞ
同人活動を規制してないとかよく言うわ
-
354
バンダイナムコもアイマスのとき訴えたよ
-
何か問題でも?
今までが緩すぎたんでしょ?
-
そりゃ朝鮮玉入れ・朝鮮回胴から安定した版権料が入りゃもうキモヲタ共と海賊版同人を切り捨てたくもなるよな
でも、それって朝鮮玉入れコンテンツ作成会社でいいんちゃうの?
-
TMAを訴えたのがニトロだけって?
アイドルマスターのエロAVが1ヶ月前のパッケ公開で消されただろうが。
-
>紳士的な朝鮮人と取引ができる
さらっと異常な事を言うなw
-
審査がある=却下の可能性が…
全部通すなら審査要らんし
一度却下された作品は200部売る事すら当然無理だし
エロいの描く奴は著作料払えば云々以前に
恐らく最初からニトロプラス作品は選択肢に入らないかと…
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363
商売の世界ではどっちが紳士的だと思う?
ろくにゲームも買わないのにキャラを凌辱する絵をかいてヌキヌキしてる日本人キモヲタと、コンテンツを適正な評価で買ってくれる朝鮮人玉入れ製造メーカと・・・
-
なんか今回も児ポと同じで2chやTwitterで仲間うちだけで規制賛成派叩いてたらいつの間にか一部の漫画家とオタク以外、右翼左翼マスコミ一般人全員敵になってそう。
-
でじたろう氏は「とらのあな」をツブしたいだけじゃないかな?
-
364
イメージを傷つける商品はダメなので、エロ物は却下の公算大とお考えください
-
許可取れ=許可しないって意味だろ?
製本してから見せろって言われて不許可だったら
丸損ってことか、なるほど
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366
それは同族嫌悪からくる規制派が「外圧でしか変わらない」と泣きついてるだけやで。
まるで、朝鮮やケンモメンのような連中やな
-
パチンコは朝鮮って言うけど機体の製造は日本人だしエスパス日拓はもとは不動産会社で日本人経営だぞ。
朝鮮人が多いのは個人経営だがチェーン店以外は潰れてるから少ない。
-
370 ?
-
369
昔アクアスタイルがスパロボ+アンパンマンで動画作品を作ってたんだけど、夜討ち朝駆けでコミケ当日にブースに来て、著作権違反の通告と商品の没収っていう騒動があってな・・・
同人嫌悪派はまたこのような快挙をニトロ+がすることを期待してるんだ
-
373 ニトロでやってもな、艦これだったら面白そう
-
規制の好きなヤツは中華人民共和国かイラクにでも行け!
嫌儲の他人の利益を嫌うヤツは北朝鮮に行け!
それで二度と帰って来るなよ、イラナイから
-
321
政府関係者とかに「見せられないよ」って絵を持って行く勇気。
-
>365
パチンコは脱税の温床だ
日本のコンテンツに寄生して儲けた金をどこに流してるか知ってるよね
-
赤字になるならしないとかwww
趣味に1円も払いたくないって?随分ケチなことで
利益がなきゃしない趣味:同人活動(金儲け)ってことですかね
それで非営利主張するとか笑える
-
377
企業は利益の最大化を図るのがお仕事で愛国がお仕事ではありません。愛国で飯が食えますか?
安定した収益を確保し、かつガイドラインでアニメアイコン+日の丸を切り捨てることができるなら、それは合理化です。
そもそも日本のコンテンツを寄生の温床にしてしまったのは対価を払うことを嫌がったキモヲタにすべての責任がありませんか?
-
ttp://twitter.com/smokeRDP
こういうグッズつくってるサークル見ると規制やむなしと思う
-
303
エロゲは斜陽産業だからコミケで作品が盛り上がってくれればいいって考えのメーカーが多い
昔は葉鍵同人が多かったけど今じゃ型月以外で同人で盛り上がってるゲームが少ないしね
他メーカーにしてみればニトロは出しゃばるな。って思ってるかもしれん
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379
金になれば何でもいいと言う考えは感心しませんね
日本人の大半はパチンコをよく思ってません
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381
んなことねーよ
最近のエロゲは売り上げとコミケ人気は全く比例してないし
コミケから人気が出るなんてこともないしな
まだpixivやtwitterやニュースサイトで話題になる方がマシ
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382
ぱちんこは安倍首相と警察庁が公認している大衆娯楽ですよ
あなたのいう大半のジャップとは大半のアニメアイコン+日の丸のことだと思います
違法でない(しかも今後ぱちんこ税導入で合法化するとも言われる)産業で利益を上げてはならないとはいささか暴論だと思いますね
-
安定のアドバルーンだな
それにしても反社会低能ヒマ人だなw
-
ルールが決まったのは良い事じゃないか
今後、ニトロ所属の作家は良いお手本になるように
他社作品の同人を出す時も200部までにするといいよ
-
384
ジャップとかお里が知れるよw
日本人の大半が望まない朝鮮パチンコが存在出来る理由が日本人には頭が痛い問題だね
脱税の温床だったパチンコが税を導入すると言っても1%だしね
どう見ても批判逃れの目くらましだよ
誠実でない企業は日本人は嫌いなんですよw
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386
「ニトロ規制」な。
今後語り継がれることになる、「ニトロ規制」
発案したのは「でじたろう」
-
386
当たり前じゃんw
まさか去年みたいに壁で二次創作同人1000部以上売り捌くなんて鬼畜な事しないでしょうよ
ないよね?
-
鬼の首取ったように言ってるのいるけど
盗人猛々しいだけなのにナニ言ってんだ
-
390
外野が盗人猛々しいとか言ってもしかたあんめぇ
実際よくわかってないでしょ君も?
-
>個人の方のこういった活動については、現在、弊社では許諾を行っておりません。
>個人の方でもしご希望の場合には、法人格を取得ないし別法人を経由してもらい、
>別途、法人版権許諾申請窓口よりご相談ください
好きな作品で利潤がでてるならむしろ払いたいくらいだけど
法人格とかどうすりゃいいんよ
-
ニトロさんの言ってること特に変わったと思えないけど、
読解力の無い方が騒ぐので分かりやすくしますってことでしょ。
グッズ等なので大儲けな同人誌も含まれる規制でしょう、
原価とトントンになる位で十分でしょ。
交通費?それ位出せば良いし、行けないなら諦めれば良い。
スカウトとか言ってるけど、高校球児にでもなったつもり?
ただの草野球でしょうに。
-
>>391
すげぇ完全にブーメランで自分に跳ね返ってきてるみっともない発言してやがる
超弩級の頭の悪さだ
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>>391
じゃあ黙って権利者の言うとおりにしてればいいじゃん
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393
スカウトじゃなくて、単発イラストの依頼でしょ?
なんで専属になる必要があるのか
-
>>393
読解力ないんだね
-
392
役所に上納金を納めます(ニッコリ
-
「魔法少女まどか☆マギカ」で当分安心だから
気が大きくなったんだね。
-
法人って結構手続き面倒だから本格自営業する気もなく
単にロイヤリティ払いたいってだけの動機じゃ無理だよ
-
392
許可しないために解かりにくい文章にして
ハードルを上げているんだよ
で、無許可で作らせて叩く。
-
>>391
>外野が盗人猛々しいとか言ってもしかたあんめぇ
外野だから黙ってろとかは無権利者の同人作家に言うべきだな
-
>>法人って結構手続き面倒だから
とらのあなやメロンブックスなんかに相談したら、仲介してくれる可能性があるかもね
“別法人を経由してもらい”
-
※396
スカウトとか何とかって、ここのコメで
見かけたからねついでに。
※397
ごめんね、じゃ分かりやすく説明して。
-
ところが、今回ニトロプラスが公開した規制がもし業界全体に浸透したとすると、200部作ったとして印刷費が55,000円(単価275円)。それを1冊1,000円で売ると10万超えるので500円として、夏と冬で約9万円。
これについて投稿者は、「おこづかいみたいな金額です。これじゃあ暮らしていけません。」と嘆いていた。
-
そりゃそうだろ。どう見ても規制どころか是認だし
利益狙いのゴロ向けにも道を残してるしで文句のつけようがないわ
-
>これについて投稿者は、「おこづかいみたいな金額です。これじゃあ暮らしていけません。」と嘆いていた。
すげえよな。趣味とかファン活動という建前ぶん投げ過ぎ
-
悪徳同人家擁護派が言ってる、メリットと
悪徳同人家のデメリットを天秤に掛けた結果でしょう。
つまり、同人作品が多少縮小しても規制した方が良いと言う
決断に達したと言うこと。
同人誌なんて無くなっても、普通にアニメとか見る人にとっては、
全く困らないわけだし。
-
我々とニトロプラスとの関係って
ダイキンエアコンとヤマダ電機の関係みたいになるのか
これで絶交状態か
-
※405
その人に、絵描きは向いてないから、
普通にバイトでもしなさいと言って上げてはどうでしょうか?
-
>>これについて投稿者は、「おこづかいみたいな金額です。これじゃあ暮らしていけません。」と嘆いていた。
そもそも、同人で食っていこうというのが間違っているのだが…
-
やらおんは営利?非営利?
-
まどマギで大儲けしたから
メジャーな一般客しか相手にしないよ宣言でしょ?
儲からないエロゲなんて、もうやってられないのかもね
-
※409
イヤイヤ、ヤマダ電機とフリーマーケット。
自分達をダイキンの様な大きな存在と勘違いしてる。
-
414
我々がヤマダ電機側では?
-
※397
もう寝ちゃった?
それとも、本当は理解できてなかった?
-
※415
そのノリは好き。
-
>>まどマギで大儲けしたから
メジャーな一般客しか相手にしないよ宣言でしょ?
無断で二次創作物を頒布するなってことだよ
200部まではファン活動と見なして無届けでも黙認するけど、それ以上やりたいなら許可を得てやりなさいよ、と
成人向け表現の可否は、取り上げた作品によるんじゃないかな
-
411
同人で食うのはいいんだよ。無許可二次創作で食うのがダメなだけで
-
>>419
倫理的なことよりも、不安定すぎるからだよ
-
趣味の範囲でやれ。商売するなら許可取って権利料払え
という最低限の常識を発表しただけで、
あれだけヒステリックな反応する奴が沸くんだからオタ業界は酷い
-
おたくの社員にもいると思うんですがそれは?って問題どうすんだろ
ここの住民はスルーしてるけど
-
422
それはこれからの話だろ
-
422
今後はガイドラインに準じた範囲で活動するか、権利元に許可を取るか、だろう
そうしなければダブルスタンダードだ、と叩かれるのは目に見えてるのだから
-
趣味とはいえ今よりさらに赤字率増えれば衰退するだろうな
印刷代も回収出来んのに地方からの交通費じゃ毎回はイベント参加出来ない
-
俺の中で同人やってる人と撮り鉄が同じレベルになったわ
-
「好きだから」を動機にできない奴は同人とかやめれば良いよ。
-
426
同人サークルの8、9割方はそもそも新刊200部未満しか刷らないような中小サークル
これでゴネてるのは商売として同人やってる大手、海賊版まがいのことしてる業者、
同人ショップ、その周辺の連中と版権エロ同人買えないと死ぬっていう一般参加者=客側
-
発狂乞食もこれで安心だな
-
428
撮り鉄もキチガイは一部やで
まあ同等
-
430
まあ実際キチガイ度はあんま変わらんと思う
自浄作用の無さも
-
なんでまあ、他人が儲けてるのが許せん!みたいなのが湧くのかねw
-
まあ、こんなのが全体に広がったら同人市場が縮小するので、オリジナルやっている人だって影響が出ると思う。
また、200部刷って、残りは無料でアップすればいいというけど、そうすると勝手に利用されて責任は自分に来る可能性だってあると思う(対応が面倒)。
-
426
だ か ら ね
草人活動はおろか即売会にも行きもしない人間がそれ言っても無意味よん
-
結局、同人の売り上げが一定額を超えたら、1割支払う
でいいんじゃね?これなら同人屋も大きなリスクにならないだろ
売れれば売れるほど、版権元も利益がいくと
-
するつもりはなくてもなるんだなこれが
よく言うターニングポイントってやつやね
たぶん規制のきっかけの一つになると思う
-
434
だ か ら ね
外から見たら自分勝手な理屈で他人の権利を侵害しているようにしか見えないって言ってんの
-
※433
勝手に利用されて責任が自分に来る可能性だってある(対応が面倒)
ってのは版権側も同じだってのクソゴロが
-
おわりのはじまりである
-
業界全体でガイドライン作って規制した方がいいな
※みても上から目線の頭おかしいやつが結構いるみたいだし
-
書店委託とかはロイヤリティ払えばいいって感じでいいんじゃないの?
-
「二次創作規制されたら生活できないから許して下さいよー」
「お前が生活できてるのが問題だから規制してるんだよ
-
ゲーセンのクレーンとかにあるアレな景品とかはアウトみたいな感じなのかな?
-
他国においてはパロディー作品の発表なんて当然認められる権利だ
日本では親告罪を利用してパロディーの黙認で対応してきたという状況
だから同人の著作権の取り扱いを厳密に定義して厳密に運用すると
他国よりも活動は著しく制限される結果になる
まあ同人は廃れて消えるだろうな
-
規制なのに規制ではないと反論するのはちょっとね~
-
ストーリー性があるものだけなら良いんじゃね
抱き枕カバーとかは営利目的としか思えんしどんどん規制するべき
-
「ニトロ規制」は、業界史に永遠に残るだろうね
-よかったね、でじたろうサン
-
446
抱き枕カバーは200部なんて数え方はしないよ
薄い本が標的なのは、バレバレぢゃねーか
逃げ道つくってんじゃねーよ! 卑怯者め!
-
まあもうニトロプラスはおしまいだわ
ニトロの製品を買う奴とニトロの同人を買う奴なんて結局一緒なのに
そんな簡単なことすら忘れてたんだからな
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ニトロの作品で暴利を得てる同人ってあったっけ?www
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これが終わりじゃなくて「これから各企業の規制が始まる」んだからな?
ニトロは問題となった案もかなり甘いが、多少甘くなるかもしれん。
だがニトロは「最も甘い規制の例」だ。
角川はニトロとシュタゲの版権を共有しているし、同じように規制をおそらく作るだろう。
そして 角 川 は ニ ト ロ よ り 確 実 に 厳 し く す るだろう。
いいか、これは規制の始まりだ。オリジナルを描かないサークルは目を覚ませ。
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いや、これで甘い規制と言ったら、まっとうな絵の同人残らんだろ。
正直、落書きレベルしか同人誌作られないんじゃ。
だって、良い本ができて売れたら規制がかかってまずいんだろ。
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※452
オリジナルのまっとうな絵を描けば良いだけですよ。
それなら、誰にも規制されることは無いし、
堂々と儲ければ良い。
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>>451
おーい、角川は同人作家を使っているんだぜ
知識が無いって実に恥ずかしいね。
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